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 Post subject: Re: Running in
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:58 pm 
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I may try a couple of gentle ones before I give it what for :twisted:

Hope yours goes well Clive :yup:

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 Post subject: Re: Running in
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:03 pm 
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edd wrote:
I seem to recall reading about Honda doing some tests with a Fireblade years ago to see how effective running in was. Thrashed from new with just a warm up at the start of a ride made for a powerful motor......which didn’t last, while religiously observing the factory recommended running in procedure made for smidgeon less absolute peak power.....but a smoother engine whose power lasted much longer........along with the engine which would cover twice as many miles. ;)

Do you plan to rebuild the motor before every ride like a race engine? I wouldn’t ;)

There's an old saying in racing circles that a loose engine is a fast engine. However, some aircraft engine manufacturers DO recommend full throttle power runs when breaking in a new motor, and obviously reliability is paramount in this application. I once had to tie the wheel of a tail dragger to a tree to do this, and stripped the tree of all its leafs.

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Last edited by Adam on Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Running in
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:04 pm 
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03 wrote:
:eat:

We must be due an oil thread soon too.
:rotfl:

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 Post subject: Re: Running in
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:14 pm 
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I'm sure that 5k revs in top gear is painfully slow. I'm certain that the odd burst upto normal type speeds won't do any harm. Don't lug the motor in too high a gear and use the gearbox lots. As the others have said, warm up any engine properly before spanking it, and that might take quite a few miles. Triumph and other manufacturers give a simple instructions, such as 'limit to 5krpm' to cover themselves in case 'ride normally' means riding at 14k rpm to some people lOl

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 Post subject: Re: Running in
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:22 pm 
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........and to kick off and oil thread lOl , I'd suggest changing the oil asap after running in, just to get rid of the crap that you get from a new engine / gearbox, and the by products of combustion that leaked past the rings before they bedded in. In fact, when new rings are fitted, giving them a hard time, is a good thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Running in
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:38 pm 
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I'm keeping it to 5k ish and not lugging the engine - any work on it will be done by the shop as it's under warranty and I don't want to give them any excuse to dodge any claims.

At 5k in 6th I'm doing about 62.

Well that kept a thread going for a little while - maybe we might get more than six folk in here ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Running in
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:46 pm 
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The running in gently procedure used to be thought of for simply seating the rings but there's a lot more to it than that from an engineering perspective. Even in the modern era of awesome material sciences, one thing won't change is about any given material stabilizing to a final size, shape and molecular structure through thermocycling and stress in a fairly controlled manner. Doesn't matter if it's metal, plastic or glass. While many parts have thermal treatments as part of their manufacturing process to achieve a minimum performance specification, not all do. But even those that do will still take a proper running in over a given time frame to stabilize into a permanent state of being. Once that's done, what you have will be an extremely durable and reliable piece of equipment.

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 Post subject: Re: Running in
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:48 pm 
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Adam wrote:
There's an old saying in racing circles that a loose engine is a fast engine.

There's an old saying at the MOT that a loose engine won't pass emissions. ;)

Beyond that, yes, I agree.

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 Post subject: Re: Running in
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:01 pm 
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I also recall the Honda man saying that the first 500 miles were the most critical for the piston rings. Odd then that Honda used to take every production 750 up to 110 mph briefly on the rollers to check all was well! :?

My old Citroen guru told me to put the new rings totally dry in the barrels so that they would ‘break in’ in the shed rotted GS motor l rebuilt. Then to load the throttle to press the rings against the barrels honing pattern. I don’t know if this worked having not had a GS from new. The left rear pot trashed it’s oil rings 110k later, but due to known cooling issues with that part of the engine. ;)
I should have used new barrels and pistons as these were sampled and matched in sets for tolerance at the factory and colour coded before assembly or packing in a spares kit (if you could find an affordable set). Imagine them doing that sampling exercise today. :shock: Maybe that’s why the GS flat fours were spookily smooth at speed. Annoyingly l found a set for £25 at an auto jumble soon after the motor was together and running. :roll:

My XB9 had new rings and a honing at 40k by Maz when he replaced the drive side main bearing outer race. :yup: Now at 46k and careful running in, the motor can squirt the bike into the verge if you overcook it while pulling out to overtake. :ill: Yep, running in rules! ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Running in
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:34 pm 
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t965m wrote:
I'm keeping it to 5k ish and not lugging the engine - any work on it will be done by the shop as it's under warranty and I don't want to give them any excuse to dodge any claims.

At 5k in 6th I'm doing about 62.

Well that kept a thread going for a little while - maybe we might get more than six folk in here ;)


Is yours the new 765cc? The 675 l rode only did 58 at 5k! :?


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 Post subject: Re: Running in
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:50 am 
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Adam wrote:
........and to kick off and oil thread lOl , I'd suggest changing the oil asap after running in, just to get rid of the crap that you get from a new engine / gearbox, and the by products of combustion that leaked past the rings before they bedded in. In fact, when new rings are fitted, giving them a hard time, is a good thing.

Why thank you. What's next? Spark plugs or a tyres thread?

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 Post subject: Re: Running in
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:00 pm 
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t965m wrote:

At 5k in 6th I'm doing about 62.



I read that as you being 5' 6" and nearly spat out my tea :D

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 Post subject: Re: Running in
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:38 pm 
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edd wrote:
I also recall the Honda man saying that the first 500 miles were the most critical for the piston rings. Odd then that Honda used to take every production 750 up to 110 mph briefly on the rollers to check all was well! :?

My old Citroen guru told me to put the new rings totally dry in the barrels so that they would ‘break in’ in the shed rotted GS motor l rebuilt. Then to load the throttle to press the rings against the barrels honing pattern. I don’t know if this worked having not had a GS from new. The left rear pot trashed it’s oil rings 110k later, but due to known cooling issues with that part of the engine. ;)
I should have used new barrels and pistons as these were sampled and matched in sets for tolerance at the factory and colour coded before assembly or packing in a spares kit (if you could find an affordable set). Imagine them doing that sampling exercise today. :shock: Maybe that’s why the GS flat fours were spookily smooth at speed. Annoyingly l found a set for £25 at an auto jumble soon after the motor was together and running. :roll:

My XB9 had new rings and a honing at 40k by Maz when he replaced the drive side main bearing outer race. :yup: Now at 46k and careful running in, the motor can squirt the bike into the verge if you overcook it while pulling out to overtake. :ill: Yep, running in rules! ;)


Honda claimed they used to thrash motors from new to bed in the rings quickly to promote good sealing for the rest of the engine life. Being too cautious running in, can cause a less than ideal finish on the rings and possibly the bore. I assume Honda knew what they were doing. It also matches the advice given by Rotax on their aero engines, especially the air cooled 447 and 503.

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 Post subject: Re: Running in
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:50 pm 
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Phil Irving, in some of his papers, writes that bedding a motor is a function of it's bore/stroke (to determine piston speed I assume), and torque output. After bedding a motor successfully, he suggested (in an ideal World) fitting new rings and giving them full power, so there doesn't seem to be any hard and fast generic rules. However, since Irving designed some very iconic bikes, and wrote his acclaimed engineering bible, over 50 years has past and metallurgy has advanced in leaps and bounds, say maybe his advice is no longer as critical.

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 Post subject: Re: Running in
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:33 pm 
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Adam wrote:
Phil Irving, in some of his papers, writes that bedding a motor is a function of it's bore/stroke (to determine piston speed I assume), and torque output. After bedding a motor successfully, he suggested (in an ideal World) fitting new rings and giving them full power, so there doesn't seem to be any hard and fast generic rules. However, since Irving designed some very iconic bikes, and wrote his acclaimed engineering bible, over 50 years has past and metallurgy has advanced in leaps and bounds, say maybe his advice is no longer as critical.

That 50 years and such is exactly why a lot of the old ways (I call them old wive's tales) don't apply anymore. Much of what was spread around was "shade tree engineering" thinking as opposed to "backed by science and research" data. The one thing that has not changed is the agreement that the absolute worst thing you can do to any engine is to start it up.

And that's where better fluids come into play, like any type 5 synthetic such as Redline and Maxima makes, as they cling to parts better and longer than any other fluids, preventing dry startups. But I'm not a fan of all material science break throughs. There's no reason a BMW boxer engine should take 10,000 miles to quit using oil. I'll take a cast iron liner any day over their fancy schmancy plating.

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