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 Post subject: Re: USA
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:43 am 
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edd wrote:
barney wrote:
"the money put into a fund for oppressed black people and their descendants. "
if you believe the genetics we all originate from Africa



So we should redistribute our wealth among all descendants of Homo Erectus? I thought that our government did that already! lOl


There Are the needy and the greedy in this world , unfortunately a lot of governmental types fall in to the latter category. any redistribution of wealth would be two for me ,one for you

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 Post subject: Re: USA
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:58 am 
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barney wrote:
edd wrote:
barney wrote:
"the money put into a fund for oppressed black people and their descendants. "
if you believe the genetics we all originate from Africa



So we should redistribute our wealth among all descendants of Homo Erectus? I thought that our government did that already! lOl


There Are the needy and the greedy in this world , unfortunately a lot of governmental types fall in to the latter category. any redistribution of wealth would be two for me ,one for you


The book l’m reading; ‘Utopia for Realists’ explains how a universal income would actually boost economies and lift many people out of the poverty trap, giving examples of how experiments in this have worked. :shock:
President Nixon was about to approve such a program, but was talked out of it by false arguments and dodgy data. Sadly few are willing to take that step now, but it will eventually come out of necessity. :?


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 Post subject: Re: USA
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:10 am 
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This article is worth reading.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/sh ... salary-cut

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 Post subject: Re: USA
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:28 pm 
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edd wrote:
The book l’m reading; ‘Utopia for Realists’ explains how a universal income would actually boost economies and lift many people out of the poverty trap, giving examples of how experiments in this have worked. :shock:
President Nixon was about to approve such a program, but was talked out of it by false arguments and dodgy data. Sadly few are willing to take that step now, but it will eventually come out of necessity. :?

But did the book touch on the fact that people on universal incomes will NEVER ever TRY to be the best they can be? How can any society get better and better and better over time if there's no reason for individuals to better themselves? Our countries became as great as they did because rewards were proportionate to the work we put in. We worked hard, educated ourselves and took risks. Ever since social programs took a foothold in the USA and the more social welfare programs that have been added since, citizens have taken it as an excuse to not try harder in life more and more. They do as little as possible to get by, if anything at all, and use the system to make up the difference to support the lifestyle they're accustomed to. Sorry, but people just get lazier and lazier as time goes by.

As I grew up in one of America's oldest cities, one thing I've observed about people who use the system and get things handed to them is that they simply don't appreciate it. I've witnessed Philadelphia have neighborhoods revitalized, only to be looted and trashed out again within 6 months, only for the residents to complain of how they live in such a shitty place. I've seen the programs increase benefits from food, housing and public transport and yet the neighborhoods and citizens have not done better, only gotten worse. They don't want to. Simply giving people something doesn't work. Nothing is appreciated unless it's earned. And that's the best reason to never have a universal income.

The divisions of income are necessary to give people a reason to want to do better for themselves and their families. Without that reward, everyone would eventually live in poverty.

Right now it really pisses me off that the corona bullshit has prompted the government to appease the lazy and irresponsible masses by rewarding them with more money than they were making before they shut everything down. Why the fuck would they want to go back to work to make less than they do sitting on their asses? In the meantime I took a 23% pay cut and never stopped working five 10s. I guess that's what I get for being a responsible adult. :headbang:

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 Post subject: Re: USA
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:57 pm 
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x1glider wrote:
edd wrote:
The book l’m reading; ‘Utopia for Realists’ explains how a universal income would actually boost economies and lift many people out of the poverty trap, giving examples of how experiments in this have worked. :shock:
President Nixon was about to approve such a program, but was talked out of it by false arguments and dodgy data. Sadly few are willing to take that step now, but it will eventually come out of necessity. :?

But did the book touch on the fact that people on universal incomes will NEVER ever TRY to be the best they can be? How can any society get better and better and better over time if there's no reason for individuals to better themselves? Our countries became as great as they did because rewards were proportionate to the work we put in. We worked hard, educated ourselves and took risks. Ever since social programs took a foothold in the USA and the more social welfare programs that have been added since, citizens have taken it as an excuse to not try harder in life more and more. They do as little as possible to get by, if anything at all, and use the system to make up the difference to support the lifestyle they're accustomed to. Sorry, but people just get lazier and lazier as time goes by.

As I grew up in one of America's oldest cities, one thing I've observed about people who use the system and get things handed to them is that they simply don't appreciate it. I've witnessed Philadelphia have neighborhoods revitalized, only to be looted and trashed out again within 6 months, only for the residents to complain of how they live in such a shitty place. I've seen the programs increase benefits from food, housing and public transport and yet the neighborhoods and citizens have not done better, only gotten worse. They don't want to. Simply giving people something doesn't work. Nothing is appreciated unless it's earned. And that's the best reason to never have a universal income.

The divisions of income are necessary to give people a reason to want to do better for themselves and their families. Without that reward, everyone would eventually live in poverty.

Right now it really pisses me off that the corona bullshit has prompted the government to appease the lazy and irresponsible masses by rewarding them with more money than they were making before they shut everything down. Why the fuck would they want to go back to work to make less than they do sitting on their asses? In the meantime I took a 23% pay cut and never stopped working five 10s. I guess that's what I get for being a responsible adult. :headbang:


Yes it goes into these aspects of human psychology, but l think it was written before this Pandemic. :?
The main issue is that in future there may simply be less work available for a large sector of society, and that the disproportionate separations and inequality of wealth actually inhibits growth and a healthy economy.

I couldn’t argue with the above as l am no economist, but there are plenty of examples of how wrong economists can be.

There are some interesting arguments and examples of experiments from around the world. One being that development aid has not been proven to be as effective as just giving cash handouts to the people and that 85% of aid doesn’t go to where it was intended. The other point is that paying the people is cheaper than administering social security, services, and legal systems. Of course It would also help if we removed the needless bullshit jobs that require an underclass of unfortunates to exist to justify those departments. All l can say is read the book and see what you think. ;)

I worked with a chap from Africa whose father was pretty high up in government in his home country. He is a really nice chap with language and manners that put many of us to shame. To his credit he is now a company partner and director here. He also talks to underprivileged youths here to encourage them to grasp the education opportunities they have here in England and to understand how tough it is for youngsters less privileged than himself in his own country. ;)


On another subject, which Reg Hunter could probably turn into a good joke. Am l being racist? I just discovered today that David Lammey is a black man! :? I had previously only heard him talking on LBC radio here and l took an instant dislike to him. Maybe that’s not being racist as l have been visualising him as a white man for nearly a year now! :shock: :old: lOl


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 Post subject: Re: USA
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:20 am 
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X1glider
Is it nature or nurture that inspire those to be the best they can be , or just stick and carrot , this time the carrot is money and the desire for more . ( when is enough enough )

Edd
“The other point is that paying the people is cheaper than administering social security, services, and legal systems. Of course It would also help if we removed the needless bullshit jobs that require an underclass of unfortunates to exist to justify those departments”
Old school, old boys network jobs for the boys you only have to look at government and all these new pink and fluffy pc correct ministerial jobs created these days .
Ref your David Lammey ,instant dislike , there are others on the radio and TV that I dislike( Jeremy Vine, Naga Munchetty) who have an aggressive, negative tone when interview people and cut them short, when the answer they get back is not the one they wanted , some have even got up and left the room during a live interview due to them not being allowed to answer questions

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 Post subject: Re: USA
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:53 am 
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:yt: l do not feel guilty about my furlough money though.

20 years ago when my lungs couldn’t function fully in any building with less than 40% humidity or over 900ppm CO2 after getting sick in a particularly polluted office, aggravated by dust from ceiling removal work, which inflamed my sinuses and airways. That building was subsequently deep cleaned, fitted with new polarised glass windows, then completely vacated for another building 200 metres away, all within three years after l left. Every person including doctors, health and safety officials to occupational health officers told me l had received poor advice, but then would not risk their necks by giving me any further advice themselves. They only official helpful advice came from two Dutch ladies in two different departments who were just as frustrated by the system as l was (they subsequently left. Probably back to the Netherlands :roll: ). Enforcement does not happen unless there is a death, and facts on paper can never be seen unless you get an order through a Solicitor or get to court. Everything is designed to prevent you getting to court unless you have a lot of money, or are of an ethnic group, or are a gay coloured single mother lOl . I estimate the cost in lost wages to me £95,000 not including lost pensions. :roll: so roll on Furlough to next Christmas in my case! ;)

My partner is going through an equally protracted battle with the legal system. And if you think people of colour are confronted by limitations to their freedoms and opportunities, try living in a wheelchair for a few months. It has been a journey of discovery for me. :old:


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 Post subject: Re: USA
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:57 am 
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.......my partner is in the wheelchair, not me fortunately! :ill:


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 Post subject: Re: USA
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:10 pm 
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edd
"so roll on Furlough to next Christmas in my case!"
just watched the news and Scotland's first minister, said that they are looking to extend the furlough scheme she also said France were looking to extend it for two years.

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 Post subject: Re: USA
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:32 pm 
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So that just shows the difference between people of need and people of greed. And I'm cool with that as it is what the spirit of the system is. I just hate how it has evolved into enablement.

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 Post subject: Re: USA
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:20 pm 
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If the virus comes back in the USA, then it is fucked....Apparently so many people have lost their jobs that when you combine it with those who do not have health insurance, it goes over 50% of the population not having health cover.
I learned that there are 5 mile queues for food banks in some places and when the people don`t have the money to put the gas in the cars to join the queue it will get very nasty very quickly.

Economists are not rolling this shit in glitter, there appears to be no good ending.

BLM will pale into insignificance when this dollop of shit hits the fan......Even talk of no election it seems :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: USA
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:02 am 
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x1glider wrote:
So that just shows the difference between people of need and people of greed. And I'm cool with that as it is what the spirit of the system is. I just hate how it has evolved into enablement.


Agreed. Having said that l lost 95k+, lt’s not like l must screw that back out of other tax payers. I do regard Furlough money as just a means to an end; food, bills and if possible to help fund whatever minor projects l am engaged in during time off regular work. Not something to be saved so that l can buy a major luxury item!. Although l expect many people will use the money for luxuries, one could argue that it all helps to keep our economy running. :?
Like you l hate greed and waste. The saddest thing l hear is when someone in a fairly mundane job says; “well it gives me something to do!” :roll:

In London l make a point of asking many immigrants l meet what they are doing and why. It’s quite refreshing to hear that many of them are on a mission, sometimes well travelled, and they are working towards something. This may be peculiar to London though as it’s a more ‘buzzy’ place and you tend to meet more people in the provinces who are more laid back or even apathetic in my experience.

One exception was the African looking chap (a bit like a Somali Pirate :? But clean and tidy) l met in a back street in London who was sitting on the footway leaning against a wheelie bin. He’d been there for a couple of hours without moving (like some African people seem to do) as people stepped over him. As l passed him again on a return journey, l wondered if he’d broken a leg or injured his ankle so l asked him if he was ok. “I am fine” he said. “It’s just hot!”, I quipped. “It is hot!” he replied (stunningly conversational lOl ). The next time l saw him a week or two later l was on my way to an EAT cafe on the corner and l was going to ask him if he would like some food. He was still sat on the path, but on the other side of the street, except that this time he was grinning inanely to himself. He was clearly a bit spaced out and had probably taken ‘something’. A bit sad then, and he disappeared as things moved into winter.

I do not expect to see him again! :sad1: for him!


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 Post subject: Re: USA
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:17 am 
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We have a saying around here “ you can take a horse to water but you can’t make it drink” from my own experiences, the people have to want to change , you can talk to them, offering advice and help, but they will only truly change their ways, if they what to change , and this can take years before they see the light and the sense of things .

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 Post subject: Re: USA
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:19 pm 
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barney wrote:
We have a saying around here “ you can take a horse to water but you can’t make it drink” from my own experiences, the people have to want to change , you can talk to them, offering advice and help, but they will only truly change their ways, if they what to change , and this can take years before they see the light and the sense of things .

So everyone needs a Bob The Cat then?

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 Post subject: Re: USA
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:52 pm 
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edd wrote:
x1glider wrote:
So that just shows the difference between people of need and people of greed. And I'm cool with that as it is what the spirit of the system is. I just hate how it has evolved into enablement.


Agreed. Having said that l lost 95k+, lt’s not like l must screw that back out of other tax payers. I do regard Furlough money as just a means to an end; food, bills and if possible to help fund whatever minor projects l am engaged in during time off regular work. Not something to be saved so that l can buy a major luxury item!. Although l expect many people will use the money for luxuries, one could argue that it all helps to keep our economy running. :?

Sorry to hear you lost that. Not like an afternoon at the track.

As for luxuries....as a tax payer, I can officially say I'm going to be screwed next fiscal year when I have to help pay back the government (me) for all the stimulus checks that went out. $1200 per person, even those that weren't working before or ever had a fucking job, just anyone of working age. And then there's the extra $600 month for people on unemployment, pushing many of them over what they would normally earn if they were working. We've been handing out far more than we really needed to in order to keep people on the same path. But the people who don't work or never did just really pushed things over the top. And people want more.

That said, all that "free" money, it seems to be going to new cars and trucks because I see paper tags all over the road. And appliances too. Our dishwasher crapped out and needs more money to fix than new so we went looking yesterday. The only ones available are the dirt cheap ones that you throw away every year. Everything else in every color but almond are sold out. Not expecting any until at least the end of August. So I guess we'll be waiting a while as there's a list at Home Depot stating that there's over 500 people waiting on the same particular unit for all the Texas stores. So how many are waiting for the other models? And the girl that helped us said the same thing goes for all the kitchen appliances. They basically only have floor models they can't sell. Some other employees have noted that power tools, blinds, lighting fixtures, cabinetry and bathroom stuff is dangerously low as well. People either have a lot of projects with the stimulus money or they're hoarding more than toilet paper now. So I picked up a toilet repair kit just in case it decides to crap out. Only a few of those were left as well.

I guess that's what the money was meant for but when nothing was open it didn't make sense to give money to people to spend, there was nothing to stimulate. But apparently no one thinks they need to save it for a rainy day and the end of this month is when the extra 600 is being taken away from those on unemployment. Will they extend the time period? We'll see because I don't know how many people are taking the bait that the fed is offering bonus money to those who will chose to go back to work. Bribing people to go to work? What I do know is that there are jobs that are not coming back, ever. And people will be on unemployment for a while longer until it runs out. They're going to wish they saved that free money.

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