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 Post subject: Re: 1125
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2012 21:15 
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proff. patpending
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I know very little about chassis design (I do like triangles though :D ), there are many people here who know a lot more than me, however if you want to be learned up, go here - http://www.tonyfoale.com/

The belt and pivot points
On an XB, the swinging arm pivot point is slightly higher than the sprocket in the horizontal plane:

Image

So looking at an XB, you can see that with the suspension unloaded, the axle (centre of rear sprocket), swinging arm pivot point and the sprocket centre are not aligned.

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As the suspension compresses, the rear axle rotates in an arc with the centre at the pivot point. As the rear axle gets moves closer to being aligned, the distance between the centre of the sprockets increases, the maximum being when the points are aligned. A practical analogy is straightening your arm.

So what you say... Well, this gives problems with belt (or chain) adjustment, and also the effect of applying load (opening the throttle) to the back wheel on the suspension movement. So much so that Bimota created frame designs to ensure these points were always aligned:

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The BMW X450 is similar...

On an XB, we can see (as Nigel pointed out on his 1125R) that as the suspension compresses, the belt will become tighter. So to ensure that the belt does not overtighten and restrict suspension movement as the suspension compresses, it it will be very slack when the suspension is extended (bike has no weight on it).

Tightness of the belt
The tightness of the belt is important. Too slack and it will jump - when you open the throttle and load the belt up, it becomes tighter at the top and it stretches slightly, making the belt longer at the bottom. Being longer, the belt will need to accommodate its extra length and it does this by appearing to sag. As the belt doesn't like to bend, and there is no tension as it nears the rear sprocket, it has difficulty aligning the belt teeth with the sprocket teeth and the belt jumps.

Contrary to this, if the belt is tight, it applies a static load to the wheel bearings, gearbox output shaft bearings and the suspension movement. This means compromised suspension (equivalent of a higher spring rate) and bearing life.

Tightening the belt
The S1/X1/M2/S3 etc. have conventional "chain" adjusters, however as with the XBs (and 1125s) as the suspension compresses, the distance between the sprockets increases and the belt tightens, hence it is very important to set the belt tension for when the bike is loaded:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=9&hilit=belt

This chap from over the pond aligns his axle, pivot point and sprocket to check belt tightness:

Image

For the XBs and 1125Rs, there is no belt adjustment one can perform, and Erik has seen fit to add an idler pulley to the design to take up the slack when the suspension is unloaded. So as the swinging arm drops, where the belt would normally become slack, it becomes supported by the pulley wheel. The pulley wheel will never be in the right place to ensure the belt load remains constant, the position is a compromise. This is one reason why a sprung tensioner, like a Free Spirits or a Pink Willy makes sense as when the suspension on an XB is unloaded, the belt tension actually increases.

What is the right tension?
As we said before, too tight and there is static load on the bearings. If it is too slack, it will jump.

In addition, if it is too slack, the shock loadings are higher. If you shut off the throttle, the bottom of the belt becomes tight as the rear wheel turns the engine, and the top is slack. When the crack open the throttle (to do a wheelie past your mates at the pub), the engine accelerates, the gearbox sprocket accelerates and is free to do so until loaded by the belt. A practical analogy is a bungee jump, where the load is applied as a shock and the bungee stretches bigtime.

Following this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9080

the failure document suggests that Buell belts fail through shock loadings or damage from stones...

I remember reading somewhere, maybe here or on BadWeb that when Erik was asked why he ran the belts so tight, he responded that it was on recommendation of the belt supplier, presumably to minimise shock loadings...

Why fit a sprung tensioner?
Both the Free Spirits and the Pink Willy sprung tensioners reduce the load on the belt. With the load reduced, the load on the gearbox output shaft bearing and wheel bearings are reduced. In addition, there are those that believe that they prevent damage from stones finding their way into a belt, allowing some compliance to accommodate the stone between the belt and the sprocket. My experience is that you can still pick stones up and they can cut into the belt. Of course, if they are not sharp flints, they may have come and gone without my knowing...

With an extended swinging arm, such as Nigel has, the stock idler wheel position is no longer optimised, so a sprung tensioner is a fix.

Interesting to note that sprung tensioners are not at all popular on BadWeb, yet a very high percentage of people on UKBEG have them...

Do you need a tensioner on a tuber? Good question... You will be told that they don't need one and one of the reasons they don't need one is that the maximum length between the sprockets is halfway through the suspension travel (which is not such a good design for belt load / effect on suspension as the bike is much more prone to squat when you pass the mid travel point), so the slack is less that it would be on a non tensioned XB or 1125.

Design criteria for a sprung tensioner
This is by no means an exhaustive list (and I have probably missed the obvious :run: )

1. As big a wheel as possible to minimise the arc through which the belt is forced - this applies to a tensioner wheel if fixed also - note the picture at the top of the pre-production engine with a tiny wheel
2. Minimum tension to accommodate stones and other foreign objects (eg. castanets)
3. Minimum tension to increase bearing life
4. Minimum tension to minimise effects on suspension as the suspension is compressed
5. Sufficient tension to reduce shock loadings
6. Sufficient tension to minimise tooth jumping
7. Wheel positioned to minimise length of chord through which the belt passes to minimise stretching of toothed face
8. Wheel positioned as close to front sprocket as possible to minimise spring movement and save weight
9. Good torsional stiffness to minimise sideways belt run off (XB and 1125 rear sprockets do not have guides)
10. Clearance for rider and other parts of the bike

Points 2. to 6. and 7. and 8. mean that there is always going to be a compromise.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. The Pink Willy moves the rotational centre of the idler wheel further rearwards. This results in more movement. For the XBs, the Free Spirits tensioner more or less maintains the stock idler wheel rotational centre position. From Maz's description, I am guessing that this more or less maintains the standard rotational centre position.

Bring on the discussion (and criticism) :eat:

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 Post subject: Re: 1125
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2012 22:50 
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I'd rather race a Honda 90

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Quoting Pash.....Interesting to note that sprung tensioners are not at all popular on BadWeb, yet a very high percentage of people on UKBEG have them...

Maybe they have better maintained roads...... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: 1125
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2012 23:14 
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err.........

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Last edited by DrBuella on 27 Jan 2012 23:17, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 1125
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2012 23:16 
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Current ride: CZ 350!
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DrBuella wrote:
pash wrote:
Maz wrote:
:roll: ......it would appear, judging by the underwhelming response to my questions above, that the technically aware members of this motorcycling forum have no opinion as to why they mindlessly bolt accessories to their machines :?
Obviously, I would've got a better response if I'd joined in with the debate re. bankers bonuses :headbang:


Aw man, how I hate disappointment.

Let's have a think why people have not responded:

1. They know but haven't had time
2. They know but can't be bothered
3. They know but are waiting for someone to respond then join in the discussion in either a positive or negative manner
4. They think they know why but when the blue bird asks the question it puts doubt in their mind and they do not want to be humiliated - They would rather wait for someone else to respond but they want to see the answer
5. They do not know the technical reason but they have faith in those that have told them to fit it - nowt wrong with that. The girl in accounts with the Mercedes has no clue what the word Kompressor means, much to the disappointment of the men in Engineering, other than that her car punishes theirs away from the lights...

I will write my thoughts about the belt and tensioner on Tuber, Fueller and Boiler later tonight. Feel free to beat me to it.




and No 6. Life's too feckin short!

(excluding Pash, who is probably a 400 yr old Timelord and has more free time than the rest of us)

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 Post subject: Re: 1125
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2012 23:37 
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2 things you missed Pash......belt 'wrap' around the front pulley (especially on 1125's, although you nearly covered that by stating the idler should be kept as close to the drive pulley as poss) and most importantly, a sprung tensioner MUST have limits built in to restrict top run slack on overrun, a spring, no matter how 'heavy' it is, can achieve this......again the closer the idler is to the drive, the better this will work (also stated in my 1st response).
Dont really think that a sprung tensioner will save a belt from debris damage......anything that runs around either pulley will do so with the belt loaded, so the spring has no bearing.
As I suggested right at the start of this thread, the best way to understand what's going on with the belt versus swingarm movement, is to remove the shock and move the swingram through it's entire arc (getting someone to bounce up and down on the bike just doesn't do it Willy :roll: )
The ideal situation is to reduce the static load whilst maintaining a uniform belt tension throughout the swingarms movement.......the standard set up is cleverly designed and gets pretty close, apart from the static load........

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 Post subject: Re: 1125
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2012 10:13 
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spen wrote:
Quoting Pash.....Interesting to note that sprung tensioners are not at all popular on BadWeb, yet a very high percentage of people on UKBEG have them...

Maybe they have better maintained roads...... ;)


Is it maybe that we are attributing bearing failures to the belts being too tight when in fact the wheel bearing are failing because of water ingress (British weather) and output bearings are failing due to a lubrication failure issue?

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 Post subject: Re: 1125
PostPosted: 31 Jan 2012 22:32 
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Think Pink
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Current ride: Awesome Ulysses & X1
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Maz wrote:
2 things you missed Pash......belt 'wrap' around the front pulley (especially on 1125's, although you nearly covered that by stating the idler should be kept as close to the drive pulley as poss) and most importantly, a sprung tensioner MUST have limits built in to restrict top run slack on overrun, a spring, no matter how 'heavy' it is, can achieve this......again the closer the idler is to the drive, the better this will work (also stated in my 1st response).
Dont really think that a sprung tensioner will save a belt from debris damage......anything that runs around either pulley will do so with the belt loaded, so the spring has no bearing.
As I suggested right at the start of this thread, the best way to understand what's going on with the belt versus swingarm movement, is to remove the shock and move the swingram through it's entire arc (getting someone to bounce up and down on the bike just doesn't do it Willy :roll: )
The ideal situation is to reduce the static load whilst maintaining a uniform belt tension throughout the swingarms movement.......the standard set up is cleverly designed and gets pretty close, apart from the static load........

well mazimus notimpreseus mancurianus mines on a bike ,nige rates it ,my experments passing up to 3 mm sodding pebbles shows a small level of movement int sprung ideler STOPS the fecking belts from being punctured buy the little fookers im happy nige is happy ,one or two others are happy ,i do fully understand the one on niges is on rolling R&D and work in progress ooa ,ive show EVERYONE MINE lets see YOURS :yup: :yup: ,all for now tudal pip :D :D

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 Post subject: Re: 1125
PostPosted: 31 Jan 2012 22:47 
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Quote:
my experments passing up to 3 mm sodding pebbles shows a small level of movement int sprung ideler STOPS the fecking belts from being punctured buy the little fookers


Was this experiment carried out on a dyno with the drive train fully loaded ?.......or did you devise a hopper arrangement to dispense said 3mm pebbles whilst the bike was being ridden in anger on the road :?

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 Post subject: Re: 1125
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2012 00:40 
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I'm getting really frustrated with this whole saga now.......I was gonna wait for pink gezzer to respond but to be honest I cant believe that the peeps reading this thread are so naive when it comes to very basic physics :(
I'm sure there are loads out there who have sussed this already (Pash for one) but rather than put Willy and his blind supporters down for his enthusiasm and determination, I thought I'd tread softly and ask peeps to consider some simple questions in the hope they'd conclude the obvious :?
I've now reached my patronising level........
A sprung tensioner can only deal with the SLACK belt that it's presented with based on spring pressure and the advantage/disadvantage it has via leverage (PK's design is at a disadvantage)
By virtue of it's hinged nature it can also compensate for belt length in order to accomodate changes due to suspension travel......what everyone seems to be missing here is that it can only do all this whilst dealing with SLACK belt ie. under drive condition any chassis design flaws (squatting etc) will be the same.
Most Buells make 90ftlb ish torque and the 1125 goes on to make 140bhp ish........you'd need a such a massive spring to deal with that it may as well be solid (and then any 3mm pebbles/sharp cornered stones found on your average road would be buried in the belt).......same goes for overrun ie. if your sprung tensioner has enough movement to cope with belt length changes for suspension travel and the further it's positioned from the drive, the more it will have to deflect, resulting in the top run of the belt skimming the swingarm and snatching like a bastid when the throttle is opened again = massive loading to the belt (check WB's vids :idea: )
The set up on my CR is bog stock.......but with reduced static load :twisted: ..... with the shock disconnected the swingarm can be moved through its entire arc without change in belt tension 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: 1125
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2012 07:46 
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"It's stock but with reduced static load"? So it's not stock then.

I can only guess that you've changed the idler wheel.-or a smaller pulley?

With the standard set up I get 1" of suspension sag then goes solid,remove idler and there is plenty of movement and shock functions as you'd expect.But you can clearly see belt tightening as swingarm rises.

Because of the pivot-spindle arrangement any swingarm deflection has to change belt length,so I fail to see how your belt tension never changes.

On the video I was trying very hard to make the tensioner fail,but despite the wheel not being the finished article it seems to manage to stay in contact with the belt most of the time.

Because the sprung tensioner allows more initial suspension travel,it then follows that torque reaction etc are different than when rigid.

I would also suggest that there is sufficient wrap round and belt tension to keep the belt in contact with the pulleys at all times except when suspension unloads or on the over run...the tensioner so far manages to control both of those conditions.

When I get chance I'll put my 1125 back on the bench,remove shock and tensioner and check,measure and record changes in belt tension though all swingarm travel.

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 Post subject: Re: 1125
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2012 08:08 
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proff. patpending
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I am struggling to understand the wrap around issue. My interpretation of Newton's second law would have me think that it will not wrap around when the belt is unloaded. My feeling is that when unloaded on a decel, vertical movement by self weight will be constrained by the swinging arm and the belt, preferring to be a big 'O', will tend to push forward on the front sprocket. When unloaded towards the bottom on an accel, the reverse will happen, being constrained by the tensioner wheel.

Of course I am quite receptive be be shown a video of what really happens.

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 Post subject: Re: 1125
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2012 08:27 
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I'd rather race a Honda 90

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Location: Rhodesia.
.. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: 1125
PostPosted: 04 Feb 2012 15:31 
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Although this is none of my business - being a tuber owner :) Wouldn't the perfect tensioner be one that was controlled by a cam driven off the swing arm offering zero lift at the point when the axle was level with the sprocket and progressively more either side?


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 Post subject: Re: 1125
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2012 23:23 
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Think Pink
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back for the summer ,many thanks nige ,will return when ive produced two more ,one which is already sold :D :D OOA also have a commision for one on an X1 :dance: :dance: wb


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 Post subject: Re: 1125
PostPosted: 23 Apr 2012 00:01 
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Think Pink
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Current ride: Awesome Ulysses & X1
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ally arrived int week, izzy wizzy lets get busy :dance: :dance: :D


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