UK Buell Enthusiasts Group :: Shawn Higbee Puts His Stock Buell 1125R in 5th Place Daytona

While its true I've read what I could in the mainstream press, this from Erik himself:

But if our bike had a bigger engine, how could it not be unfair? Well, the journalists sold their readers a pile of ignorance when they talked about power-to-weight advantages. Yes we had some power-to-weight, which showed on straights, but our power was restricted a lot, and you need to remember rider weight in the equation. So it was far less than people claimed.

Secondly, we ran heavier, which on identical 600-type tires was really a big issue. How much time on a race track are you at full power compared to how much time you are at the traction limit of the tire? All the time you are at the traction limit of the tires—accelerating, cornering, braking—we were at a disadvantage. Third, we had more inertia than the 600s, which makes the bike harder to turn, especially, once again, on 600-spec tires. Fourth, we were told to run bodywork that was not very aerodynamic to hold down top speed to less than the fast 600s. We were very artificially constrained with power, weight and aero, while the 600s were at the ragged edge on power but were on perfect tires. It made for great racing.

What utter BS. The industry was busy destroying itself over egos, while spectators were robbed of some of the greatest races ever—in the middle of a hideous recession. At the end, the DSB championship was decided in the last race of the year by a couple of points, and could have been a Suzuki, a Yamaha or a Buell. Danny won on consistency as well as huge talent. Our bike was not a dominant force; the rules were set to make the bikes equal.

http://www.cycleworld.com/article.asp?s ... le_id=2119

I know that racing is the proving ground for good ideas, but some people say American Stockcar racing is boring because all the cars are exactly the same, and that the European Touring Car series is great because every vehicle has different strong and weak points. Maybe it's just me that doesn't care to watch a field of identical 600s battle with fuel and tire consumption as the factors.

Racing is a business, with sponsors and ratings and merchandise sales, it's not the mechanical olymics where truth and justice prevail. If a series is boring, people won't watch, and the series will die. That is the Darwinism of sports. Remember Bowling on TV.

Author:	Bandageman [ 11 Apr 2010 17:22 ]
Post subject:	Shawn Higbee Puts His Stock Buell 1125R in 5th Place Daytona
Have any of you seen this?? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fom0SQkCKY well wicked

Author:	Vecchio Lupo [ 12 Apr 2010 09:14 ]
Post subject:	Re: Shawn Higbee Puts His Stock Buell 1125R in 5th Place Day
Good thing Harley Davidson closed Buell down. They wouldn't want to take a chance on another major race win, or worse, acceptance of water cooled V-twins. A bike you can purchase for under 10K, came within a stones throw of the 150K+ factory backed efforts. WOW, be proud boys.

Author:	Norm [ 12 Apr 2010 10:01 ]
Post subject:	Re: Shawn Higbee Puts His Stock Buell 1125R in 5th Place Day
Errrmmm really? How about: Buell doesn't get beaten up too badly by competitors with half the engine size in a race which was held 13 months ago. WOW, be proud boys. BTW, the bike was hardly "stock", as Buell had been developing the big for racing in the previous two seasons, and, if you want to cheer a hollow victory, Buell did win 2 weeks later when Danny Eslick took the honours (against the 600s) for both rounds at Fontana. Welcome to 2009.

Author:	Vecchio Lupo [ 12 Apr 2010 15:53 ]
Post subject:	Re: Shawn Higbee Puts His Stock Buell 1125R in 5th Place Day
Its not as easy as 600cc verses 1200cc, it has a lot more science involved. If it were all about engine size, how did any of the manufacturers with those 600s manage a win at all? why aren't Formula 1 cars sporting 6 litre V10s? The bikes are apples and oranges, but close enough to level the field. Remember when the rotary Nortons had the race world in a fit because Norton said they displaced 588cc and the FIM said the rotary was an unfair advantage? The shoe was on the other foot then. In what class should the Ducati/Buell/Aprilia V twins race in? I think the Premier class, whatever you want to call it, should be all about building a better mousetrap. In my opinion (and that is all it is)there should be no displacement cap on the unlimited MotoGP stuff. The majority of manufacturers campaign 600s because they are the fastest on most tracks, otherwise you would see them lobby for a change so they could run the big 1400s. The speed does not offset the added mass and weight of the Superbikes on anything other than the salt flats.

Author:	Spook [ 12 Apr 2010 19:01 ]
Post subject:	Re: Shawn Higbee Puts His Stock Buell 1125R in 5th Place Day
That's rubbish VL. If that was true then the 800 MotoGP bikes would be breaking the old tracks records......................

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Shawn Higbee Puts His Stock Buell 1125R in 5th Place Daytona https://ukbeg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6022	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Avalaugh [ 12 Apr 2010 19:11 ]
Post subject:	Re: Shawn Higbee Puts His Stock Buell 1125R in 5th Place Day
worms, can, open I have come from 600 supersport bikes and can say my 1125 is much faster on the road, but not the track, but then thats propably my riding holding me back.

Author:	Vecchio Lupo [ 13 Apr 2010 09:25 ]
Post subject:	Re: Shawn Higbee Puts His Stock Buell 1125R in 5th Place Day
While its true I've read what I could in the mainstream press, this from Erik himself: But if our bike had a bigger engine, how could it not be unfair? Well, the journalists sold their readers a pile of ignorance when they talked about power-to-weight advantages. Yes we had some power-to-weight, which showed on straights, but our power was restricted a lot, and you need to remember rider weight in the equation. So it was far less than people claimed. Secondly, we ran heavier, which on identical 600-type tires was really a big issue. How much time on a race track are you at full power compared to how much time you are at the traction limit of the tire? All the time you are at the traction limit of the tires—accelerating, cornering, braking—we were at a disadvantage. Third, we had more inertia than the 600s, which makes the bike harder to turn, especially, once again, on 600-spec tires. Fourth, we were told to run bodywork that was not very aerodynamic to hold down top speed to less than the fast 600s. We were very artificially constrained with power, weight and aero, while the 600s were at the ragged edge on power but were on perfect tires. It made for great racing. What utter BS. The industry was busy destroying itself over egos, while spectators were robbed of some of the greatest races ever—in the middle of a hideous recession. At the end, the DSB championship was decided in the last race of the year by a couple of points, and could have been a Suzuki, a Yamaha or a Buell. Danny won on consistency as well as huge talent. Our bike was not a dominant force; the rules were set to make the bikes equal. http://www.cycleworld.com/article.asp?s ... le_id=2119 I know that racing is the proving ground for good ideas, but some people say American Stockcar racing is boring because all the cars are exactly the same, and that the European Touring Car series is great because every vehicle has different strong and weak points. Maybe it's just me that doesn't care to watch a field of identical 600s battle with fuel and tire consumption as the factors. Racing is a business, with sponsors and ratings and merchandise sales, it's not the mechanical olymics where truth and justice prevail. If a series is boring, people won't watch, and the series will die. That is the Darwinism of sports. Remember Bowling on TV.

Author:	Vecchio Lupo [ 13 Apr 2010 10:13 ]
Post subject:	Re: Shawn Higbee Puts His Stock Buell 1125R in 5th Place Day
Check out the last bit on page 3, the math gets explained and the light starts to flicker in my pea brain. http://www.cycleworld.com/article.asp?s ... le_id=2119

Author:	edd [ 13 Apr 2010 12:44 ]
Post subject:	Re: Shawn Higbee Puts His Stock Buell 1125R in 5th Place Day
Vecchio Lupo wrote: While its true I've read what I could in the mainstream press, this from Erik himself: But if our bike had a bigger engine, how could it not be unfair? Well, the journalists sold their readers a pile of ignorance when they talked about power-to-weight advantages. Yes we had some power-to-weight, which showed on straights, but our power was restricted a lot, and you need to remember rider weight in the equation. So it was far less than people claimed. Secondly, we ran heavier, which on identical 600-type tires was really a big issue. How much time on a race track are you at full power compared to how much time you are at the traction limit of the tire? All the time you are at the traction limit of the tires—accelerating, cornering, braking—we were at a disadvantage. Third, we had more inertia than the 600s, which makes the bike harder to turn, especially, once again, on 600-spec tires. Fourth, we were told to run bodywork that was not very aerodynamic to hold down top speed to less than the fast 600s. We were very artificially constrained with power, weight and aero, while the 600s were at the ragged edge on power but were on perfect tires. It made for great racing. What utter BS. The industry was busy destroying itself over egos, while spectators were robbed of some of the greatest races ever—in the middle of a hideous recession. At the end, the DSB championship was decided in the last race of the year by a couple of points, and could have been a Suzuki, a Yamaha or a Buell. Danny won on consistency as well as huge talent. Our bike was not a dominant force; the rules were set to make the bikes equal. http://www.cycleworld.com/article.asp?s ... le_id=2119 I know that racing is the proving ground for good ideas, but some people say American Stockcar racing is boring because all the cars are exactly the same, and that the European Touring Car series is great because every vehicle has different strong and weak points. Maybe it's just me that doesn't care to watch a field of identical 600s battle with fuel and tire consumption as the factors. Racing is a business, with sponsors and ratings and merchandise sales, it's not the mechanical olymics where truth and justice prevail. If a series is boring, people won't watch, and the series will die. That is the Darwinism of sports. Remember Bowling on TV. I agree with you VL. As you point out the competition motorcycle is a complex animal and not just a power to weight/capacity race. Thats why mixing engine sizes and configurations is also complex and makes for interesting racing. Look at how fast the pure racing (stinkwheels I know) 250 stroker became before they were banned. Notice also how F1 has refined itself into a procession of identical piloted missiles because of engine capacity, fuel, tyre, and practice limitations. It needs some radical thinking like racing bikes to introduce different engine configurations/capacities for cars. F1 could start with a low 10,000rpm limit, but allow 5 litre V8 engines, a 16,000rpm limit with 3 litre V12s, and a 13,000 limit with a 3.7 litre V10 etc, etc. Then watch the chassis and tyre designers struggle with torque loadings. They could easily adjust fuel and rpm limits if any one class showed too much advantage. a 7 litre V6 at 7000rpm anyone?

Author:	edd [ 13 Apr 2010 13:22 ]
Post subject:	Re: Shawn Higbee Puts His Stock Buell 1125R in 5th Place Day
Well perhaps the oversize V6 would be too heavy and struggle to make bmep, but you get my drift?

Author:	Lazzzydog [ 15 Apr 2010 11:53 ]
Post subject:	Re: Shawn Higbee Puts His Stock Buell 1125R in 5th Place Day
Modern racing at the highest levels is all about electronics, power is nothing until its applied to the track as a moving force. The bikes/cars with the most sophisticated launch control/traction control/anti wheely/ABS are always the winners. A blanket ban on all rider aids would improve racing no end from a spectators point of view, and make it more enjoyable for the riders. Valentino Rossi feels that electronics have artificially reduced the skill needed to ride a full on factory GP bike.

Author:	Vecchio Lupo [ 15 Apr 2010 12:07 ]
Post subject:	Re: Shawn Higbee Puts His Stock Buell 1125R in 5th Place Day
Bravo.. I like where this thread is going. I agree in better mousetrap and better pilot. I love Rossi, and I wish him well, but as a teenager I followed Agostini, and I don't want to see him toppled as the MotoGP record holder. When it happens, and it will, people will bring up ride by wire and traction control. No Crybabies, every time has a king. I would like to meet Ago so if anybody catches wind of him making a personal appearance, please let me know. I really want him to sign my AGV helmet.

Author:	edd [ 15 Apr 2010 12:20 ]
Post subject:	Re: Shawn Higbee Puts His Stock Buell 1125R in 5th Place Day
Lazzzydog wrote: Modern racing at the highest levels is all about electronics, power is nothing until its applied to the track as a moving force. The bikes/cars with the most sophisticated launch control/traction control/anti wheely/ABS are always the winners. A blanket ban on all rider aids would improve racing no end from a spectators point of view, and make it more enjoyable for the riders. Valentino Rossi feels that electronics have artificially reduced the skill needed to ride a full on factory GP bike. A ban on such aids would also prioritise engine development towards more rideable designs, hence experimental firing orders such as 'big bang', crossplane cranks etc. It's always more inspiring to read about bike builders working on more elemental aspects of design such as adding mass to cranks, bendiness to frames, etc to aid traction and handling.

Author:	Trojan [ 15 Apr 2010 12:27 ]
Post subject:	Re: Shawn Higbee Puts His Stock Buell 1125R in 5th Place Day
Modern electronics may make it easier for mere mere mortals to ride a GP bike, but it takes a lot more than that to run at the front of a modern GP race. Both Stoner and Rossi (and presumably Lorenzo) regularly take a corner with the front brake applied in order to keep the front wheel down, the rear brake applied to make the bike turn sharper and the throttle pinned mid corner (don't try this at home!) so have developed riding skills specifically to deal with the electronic age. Agostini was a great rider, but he had many years when he had no opposition at all except some ageing Manx Nortons ridden by privateers, and would regularly lap the entire field on his way to a GP victory. His only opposition came when Honda and Yamaha were involved in racing. I think his greatest ever season was when he won the world championship for Yamaha rather than his many years on the MV Agusta. Agostini wil probably be at the Bikers Classic at Spa (http://eng.bikersclassics.be/) this year if you want to meet him, along with many other stars of yesteryear I met him afew years ago at Mallory Park and he was very pleasant.

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Author:	ursus americanus [ 15 Apr 2010 12:53 ]
Post subject:	Re: Shawn Higbee Puts His Stock Buell 1125R in 5th Place Day
Quote: I met him afew years ago at Mallory Park and he was very pleasant. I was there too, my other half was right at the front of the queue to get autographs from him and John Cooper. She only had "Moon Eyes" for Ago though Steve