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Engine model https://ukbeg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=15823 |
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Author: | pash [ 04 Nov 2012 09:20 ] |
Post subject: | Engine model |
I have been asked to help out at my old university with the Formula SAE team. This includes the use of an engine model (a competitor to Mickrick's WAVE simulation) from one of the leading engine consultancies, and arm of a company that runs a fairly successful F1 team. Not sure if I can name them as I am not really that up on the licence agreement ( ![]() Anyway, I have been acclimatising myself with the model by plumbing in the data from my black S1, working from inlet to exhaust: Forcewinder HSR42 XB heads SE 497 cams (std on the S1/X1/M2/S3) Buell Pro Race exhaust (Albert's headers) The model is fairly accurate in terms of engine dimensions and even includes the buldge in the headers which supports the C ring and flange ![]() It is not perfect by any means, for instance the heat transfer models are not optimised and the cam profile intermediate points are estimated, but it gives me a baseline and it will not be a million miles out, with predicted power being high 90s / low 100s bhp. I must admit, this is not all my own work, Gunter gave me a configuration for what I can only describe as a tuned up Blast ( ![]() As I said earlier, the model does output in bhp, however this is so subjective as it depends on so many assumptions related to the combustion process that I will stick to comparing volumetric efficiencies... The simulation takes about 30 minutes to run, so firstly a comparison of different cams: SE497 (stock) SE536 SE551 (same as XB) SE575 The model looks like this (which will probably mean nothing to the majority): Attachment: Results from the study (torque is proportional to volumetric efficiency): Attachment: It should be noted that the volumetric efficiency shows the potential of the engine, i.e. you still need to optimise fuel and ignition timing. This is important for later discussion. The 551s, fitted to XBs tend to give (with a my intake and exhaust configuration) the worst peak performance, but give better performance at lower speeds. These results tie up well with other studies in terms of trending. Although not the same configuration on both bikes, my S1 (497s) which shares the same top end as my Firebolt (551s but different exhaust and intake) is about 6% better on power on the same dyno. Probably not the best of comparisons as there are so many differences. The 536s are a couple of % down on performance below 5000RPM compared to the 497s, which kinda ties up with 03's observations. NRHS testing of the 551s v's the 536s found an approximate 5% difference, the 536s giving more power. Note that the data is a little noisy, from the dyno. The model gave me a difference of 2.1% which is about half the NRHS findings, however dyno results are very dependent on engine temperature, dyno condition and ambient conditions (despite the corrections used). The test engine was quite close in spec to my S1. Coming back to my comment earlier, volumetric efficiency is a measure of potential. Where the 551s have given better results at lower speeds, the optimum performance would be gained by less ignition advance than the 536s which, in the dyno test, would have probably given more power at the lower end. For that, you could either use a programmable system like my Dyna2000 or put an ECM in place. NRHS testing of the 575s v's the 536s found an approximate 4% difference, the 575s giving more power. Again, the data is a little noisy. The model suggested a 0.3% difference, but the same caveats above apply in addition to the fact that this was a 1250 engine. Best thing is that I have a model which I can compare the effects of small changes to inlet, exhaust and cam profile before cutting metal (or spending money). |
Author: | Mickrick [ 04 Nov 2012 10:11 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Engine model |
I'll take the 551's. You know this stuff inside out don't you! ![]() |
Author: | barney [ 04 Nov 2012 18:18 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Engine model |
Best thing is that I have a model which I can compare the effects of small changes to inlet, exhaust and cam profile before cutting metal (or spending money). pash me thinks you and battyone are going to be having long meaningful talks ![]() |
Author: | Mickrick [ 05 Nov 2012 08:37 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Engine model |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3ecq8MNfk0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HhjrZWDsbs |
Author: | barney [ 05 Nov 2012 08:49 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Engine model |
Mickrick ![]() nice demo , for me the pictures speak a thousand words , must be a real PITA if you got to plot a load of x y co-ordinates to get the shape of the inlet manifold or exhaust , but once done then any subtle changes should show up ![]() |
Author: | pash [ 05 Nov 2012 11:03 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Engine model |
Mickrick wrote: I'll take the 551's. You know this stuff inside out don't you! ![]() I think YOU know your stuff inside out and are just toying with folk... Mickrick wrote: Get my drift? |
Author: | Mickrick [ 05 Nov 2012 17:56 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Engine model |
Hi Barney, No XYZ co-ordinates to plot with the 3d modelling, it's all done with the mouse. Select tools, click and drag. I think it's awsome stuff, I'm really interested in it, and would love to get a licence for the software, but I had difficulty with getting a licence last year, as Solidworks put me on to the Spanish re-seller, and it all go a bit confusing to say the least! They're not realy used to dealing with a single customer. More corporate customers like my old firm Caterpillar. I may try againwith the student package, to get my foot in the door. But I need to invest heavily in the hardware first! If I was in U.K. I'd be booked into night school classes. All I've managed so far is to read a 600 odd page book to model a desk lamp! ![]() Pash, you give me too much credit! I'm just a humble mariner. You're toying with ME aren't you... ![]() |
Author: | barney [ 05 Nov 2012 18:57 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Engine model |
that must be one hell of a desk lamp ![]() |
Author: | Mickrick [ 06 Nov 2012 19:27 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Engine model |
The finite stress analysis is cool. Check out the video in the link, for the hydrualic jaws that firemen use for ripping open cars. http://www.solidworks.com/sw/products/s ... alysis.htm Keep us posted on progress Pash. I love this stuff! ![]() |
Author: | pash [ 07 Nov 2012 20:49 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Engine model |
Hmmm, Forcewider or Buell Pro Race air filter (forgetting the sealing issue)??? Attachment: Equally applicable to the NRHS one I am sure... So, The Grenade with the Pro Race filter, with optimised ignition timing (a little less advance than you would use with the Forcewinder) and fuelling, you are looking at a 2% increase in torque (or power) at 6000 RPM, 7% at 6500 and 10% at 7000... Not particularly good at 4000 RPM though ![]() |
Author: | Mickrick [ 07 Nov 2012 21:07 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Engine model |
But is it calculating volumetric eficiencey, or just airflow? I can't see how volumetric efficiencey can change on a tube of fixed size. The CFM must increase proportionaly with engine RPM surely? ![]() |
Author: | pash [ 07 Nov 2012 21:33 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Engine model |
Come on Mick, stop extracting the urine. You know very well that engines are always air limited and hence the goal is to get as much air in the cylinder as possible. The measure of this is volumetric efficiency. The trick to get the highest amount of mixture in the cylinder is to effectively scavenge (the exhaust helps here) and increase the pressure at the inlet valve as it closes (bet you always wondered why the inlet valve closes after BDC). You do this by exploiting pressure waves generated in the intake and exhaust system. But CFM will not increase proportionally with speed cos air is a compressible fluid. And CFM is a great measurement for pumping but not trapping air... |
Author: | gunter [ 07 Nov 2012 21:45 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Engine model |
Could you post valve/port air flow diagrams, please? These show quite clearly how exhaust gas, still trapped in the combustion chamber flows backwards into the inlet port when the pressure is too high. |
Author: | pash [ 07 Nov 2012 21:53 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Engine model |
OK, I'll look out some good data. |
Author: | barney [ 08 Nov 2012 11:13 ] |
Post subject: | Re: Engine model |
Mickrick wrote: But is it calculating volumetric eficiencey, or just airflow? I can't see how volumetric efficiencey can change on a tube of fixed size. The CFM must increase proportionaly with engine RPM surely? ![]() if this were the case then the fuel maps would increase propotionaly with engine RPM. but they don't and at times there is a big change between cells because pash wrote: You do this by exploiting pressure waves generated in the intake and exhaust system. and the volumetric efficiencey changes with RPM and tuned lenghts of exhaust , inlet track, valve timing ,duration, lift etc etc |
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