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 Post subject: A tale of two VOESes
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2012 22:19 
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proff. patpending
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Went out on the Grenade at the weekend and found it pinked like a fatherless child at high throttle openings and low engine speeds. I was baffled, until I thought back to what had changed recently...

...During a regular 'once over' on the Grenade, I found the VOES looking a little tired, the wires exiting had lost their insulation, so I decided to change it out for a new one...

People are probably scratching their heads wondering what a VOES is. Well, it is on all carbed Buells (and Harleys) and is a Vacuum Operated Electrical Switch, which tells the ignition unit which curve is needed. With a depression, such as the throttle closed, the switch makes contact and a curve with more advance is selected. When the throttle is opened, the depression goes away and the switch should then break the circuit and a map with less advance is selected.
Image

As everyone knows, you need more ignition advance if you have a diluted (closed throttle - exhaust gases are sucked back into the cylinder during valve overlap) or lean mixture. In both these situations, the mixture is burning slower so you want to start it burning earlier. The other time you want more ignition advance is at high engine speed, where the charge has a shorter time to burn, so again, you start it burning earlier.

As everyone also knows, an over advanced ignition, especially in big bored engines, can lead to knock or pinking at large throttle openings and low speeds, hence when you rip open the throttle you want less advance.

Back to my problem and it looks like the new VOES has a different (higher) trigger pressure than the one before. I did a bit of reading up and found lots of articles about how they tend to differ in trigger pressure out of the bag. I also found that you can pull the silicon sealant out to get to the adjustment screw with a little hook... Before...
Image

...And after...
Image

The screw controls the preload on a spring which essentially changes the pressure (depression) at which the contact is broken. At the extremes, if the screw was removed, you would always have the curve with the higher advance. If the screw was screwed in all the way, you would always have a lower advance curve.

Looks like I need to screw mine in a little, but how much? Well that is where some monitoring of the switch position comes in.

I have produced a slave harness:
Image

And connected an LED in series with the switch:
Image

This will allow me to see when I am on each curve, when the LED is on I am on the higher advance, when the LED is off I am on the lower advance curve.

In addition, I put a longer bit of hose on the switch so I could hang it onto a frame rail for easy adjustment:
Image

And more importantly, I need to seal the top of the VOES again to ensure no leaks down the screw thread. I will do this with some insulation tape or similar.

Back to the ignition timing, I am going to need to have less advance when I crack open the throttle, so I will be watching the LED when I do this and it needs to be off... But at cruise, where the mixture is diluted, I need the LED on. And back to the ignition curves above, I am using curve 4, I will want the LED on at part throttle up to 5000rpm. However the plan will be to get rid of the pinking and see where that leaves me...

That is a job for tomorrow though...

PS. This is nothing new, I had the idea of what to do, but then when googling I have found that every man and their ferret has done it already...

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two VOESes
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2012 06:33 
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proff. patpending
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More ignition curves here...

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two VOESes
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2012 08:04 
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:yup: Nick :sun:

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two VOESes
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2012 08:29 
The old fashioned version 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two VOESes
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2012 20:52 
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proff. patpending
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Location: Bristol - Gateway to all things good
Treated myself to two of these to cap the end during development. Samples are free... :D

Not had chance to do anything tonight so will tweak Saturday morning, by which time my caps will have arrived... 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two VOESes
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2012 22:18 
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I tried this a few years back and even bought a vacuum guage :o no not the one to stretch me dong lOl

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two VOESes
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2012 22:46 
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proff. patpending
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Joined: 06 May 2009 20:20
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Current ride: Victoria Sponge
Location: Bristol - Gateway to all things good
And?

Not sure you need a vacuum gauge though... What would you set it to? I reckon the engine will tell you when it is happy...

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two VOESes
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2012 22:57 
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At the time i thought i had a dodgy voes switch and the only way to test it was with the guage to make sure it was switching over when it was supposed too,which it was :oooops:

All way over my head lOl

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two VOESes
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2012 23:08 
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proff. patpending
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The two VOES I have used on Grenade definitely have different switching points. You can check if it switches by sucking on the pipe. As for when it should switch, I will let the engine decide... It should be min advance at WOT low RPM all the way to the rev limiter, but max advance at cruise...

I reckon mine has been on max advance all the time... And I am sure my bike is not the only one to be stuck on that curve :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two VOESes
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 23:24 
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proff. patpending
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Only took half a turn to get the LED to go off at low RPM WOT.

The cap fitted a treat... Highly recommended...

Image Image

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two VOESes
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 23:59 
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Cool some more Pat Pending fettling.

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two VOESes
PostPosted: 01 Apr 2012 00:03 
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:roll: ....pat pending ?.....I really dont think so, some of us have been doing this stuff for years :)

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two VOESes
PostPosted: 01 Apr 2012 03:29 
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proff. patpending
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As :maz: says, not new by any means, just a challenge set by original part variability that I have not seen anything posted about here before.

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two VOESes
PostPosted: 01 Apr 2012 07:38 
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pash wrote:
Image

But pash dear - white cable ties. Tsk. :ner:

I recently acquired some really nice cabling specific stretchvelcro (a nudge is as good as a wink to a blind bat).

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two VOESes
PostPosted: 12 May 2013 14:57 
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proff. patpending
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Current ride: Victoria Sponge
Location: Bristol - Gateway to all things good
Back to VOES again. I eventually ended up with a VOES trigger depression of 5 in.Hg as measured with my eBay vacuum tester.

All good stuff, the little light was on during cruise and off during acceleration, however I did notice a bit of pinking on JoGLE when Cooter and I were racing from roundabout to roundabout on the A30, and more recently when the engine got a bit hot as I evaded parking up in the Italian Motor Festival in the centre of Bristol...

Off came the VOES for testing, it was still set to 5 in.Hg which is within spec in the workshop manual (5 - 6 in.Hg), but it meant that I would need a bigger throttle opening at lower revs to switch to the retard curve than a 6 would need, and this figured cos I was getting pinking at very small throttle openings.

So, I re-set it to 6 in.Hg. This would then work against me at cruise where I want more advance and hence my fuel consumption would suffer...

I got the opportunity to test it today on an IAM half-day ride (someone complained that the Grenade was too loud however the majority of people on the ride liked the noise) where I could not get it to pink and a sporty 120 mile ride to Brecon and back (including plenty of full throttle overtakes) returned 64mpg.

Today's conclusion is that 6 in.Hg appears to work better...

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