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Electrical gremlins
https://ukbeg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2981		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  yourguitarhero [ 13 Oct 2009 19:39 ]
Post subject:  Electrical gremlins
2007 XB12 STT 3600 miles.

I've noticed over the last couple of days that the starter motor was taking a bit more effort to start the bike - the time between pushing the button and the engine kicking in was longer (the time when the lights turn off) and it seemed to struggle a little.

Anyway, today trying to start it the bike stayed in its no electrical power (while starter button depressed) for almost 3 secs before starting and after the clock and all the trip counters were reset - as if the battery had been disconnected.

Is this a known issue? I've search but didn't find anything.

Bike is goig to dealer tomorrow for some (cosmetic) warranty work, so can maybe get them to look over it.
Author:  DrBuella [ 13 Oct 2009 20:12 ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical gremlins
Possible oxidised battery connection?
Probably looks ok and is tight but you can a layer of oxide between the terminal and connector. Had similar on my Raptor with same symptoms.
Any bad connections tend to get hot during heavy loading.
Author:  asda160 [ 13 Oct 2009 20:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical gremlins
i think it twas flying duchman :?: who posted about paint behind earths....mine an 07 xb12x always appeared to stwuggle to turn over then kicked into life....

so following the advice to check all earths i found two had paint covering where the lead met the frame and mild corrosion ont' stud fastners....wire wool, acf 50 afterwards..and gone is the stwuggle.....and it feels marginally smoother..although that may just be a placebo thing jobber...

it's worth a try and costs nought, nil point, zero, zilch, nada :yup: ..only time
Author:  THE FLYING DUCHMAN [ 13 Oct 2009 21:56 ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical gremlins
asda160 wrote:
i think it twas flying duchman :?: who posted about paint behind earths....mine an 07 xb12x always appeared to stwuggle to turn over then kicked into life....

so following the advice to check all earths i found two had paint covering where the lead met the frame and mild corrosion ont' stud fastners....wire wool, acf 50 afterwards..and gone is the stwuggle.....and it feels marginally smoother..although that may just be a placebo thing jobber...

it's worth a try and costs nought, nil point, zero, zilch, nada :yup: ..only time


All I can say YGH is that it worked for me.

All my engine rough running problems have gone. The idle is now so smooth that even the indicators hardly move and the rev counter is as steady as a rock. The engine runs better than it ever has in almost any gear/rev combination.

All the hard starting I had always had with the bike, two years, has gone as well. The engine now starts first time, every time, hot or cold and even on very cold mornings. I do get the odd cough if the engine is stone cold but that is normal-ish.

In short 15 min work sorted all the problems and cost nothing. The power and torque of the engine is now a joy to behold and is fecking great from an "Old-Iron" lump like this one.

You will of course need all your other things like AFV, TPS, idle setting, and the like to be right as well. Your bike may have other earth points for the loom and they will need doing as well.

Best of luck Dud :D
Author:  yourguitarhero [ 13 Oct 2009 22:16 ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical gremlins
Where are all the earth connections?

I had a look under the seat and there are 3 connections to one bolt on the left hand side (if sitting on the bike) that connects to the seat frame area. I took that off and couldn't see any paint there.

Got battery out and have cleaned terminals with wire wool (brillo pad!), a cloth and some electrical solvent cleaner and have put it on trickle charge.

Checked the ECM with ECMSpy and no trouble codes logged in there.
Author:  THE FLYING DUCHMAN [ 13 Oct 2009 22:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical gremlins
Hi YGH.

The problem for me did not show up as a fault on the ECM system.

Take out the bolt of the earth strap/loom to the sub-frame. Clean off any paint/corrosion on the sub-frame bolt mount with a file and wipe/clean/file back the loom earths as well. Put it all back together and see what happens.

I am not saying that it will sort the problem but might help. Mine had no corrosion and was tight, so thought not a problem, but it worked for me.
Author:  Maz [ 14 Oct 2009 00:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical gremlins
.......also make sure the subframe to main frame has a good earth.
Author:  THE FLYING DUCHMAN [ 14 Oct 2009 01:14 ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical gremlins
Maz wrote:
.......also make sure the subframe to main frame has a good earth.


Another good idea.

Alloy-on-Alloy, Alloy-on-steel, etc with little or no cross-bonding and on a bike :roll:. But then they go and use those military spec plugs on other parts of the bike. Its like chalk and cheese :twisted:

Given this sort of thing and all the other odd-ball problems on a Buell you have to ask yourself what the design team were on at the time they dreamed up the XB range.

But then again the bike has something about it that makes it unique. You cant put a Buell up against any other bike it just will not wash. That is a mistake and the thing that will kill the marque in the end.

That saying "A love once lost" comes to mind.

Enjoy, lumps and all, while you can :rofl:
Author:  yourguitarhero [ 15 Oct 2009 13:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical gremlins
Well, bizarre results.

I charged my battery on the trickle charger overnight, then cleaned up the contacts on the battery and the earth connections. I couldn't find the earth connection between frame and subframe though? I then took the bike up to the dealer yesterday morning for a new sprocket (warranty) and to pick up a footpeg and indicator (blind van driver). Bike was doing its usual - little slow starting, stuttery running around town.

Picked it up this morning and the bike ran a lot better? Started right on the button and rev'd a lot better - none of the lag that I was getting revving up from say 2000.

Had a good chat with the Harley guys and they never mentioned doing anything more and I doubt they would have without asking! I had told them about the electrics problem - they'd mentioned that if the battery charge drops below 11V they need a really good charge to get them full up again?

Is it possible that because most of my riding is short runs around town (and I shut the bike off at traffic lights quite often and start it up again) that the battery charge had dropped to a low level and wasn't getting charged fully up?
I've never charged the battery before and it is 2 years old.

It seems to be the same symptoms/result as flyingdutchman was mentioning but I'm wondering why it took an extra 24 hours after cleaning and charging to sort itself out?

I'm wondering if the Harley guys charged the battery over night and never mentioned it.
Author:  Maz [ 15 Oct 2009 13:36 ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical gremlins
Quote:
I couldn't find the earth connection between frame and subframe though?


Exactly, there isn't one ie. relies on a good 'mechanical' connection between the 2 painted frames.
Author:  yourguitarhero [ 15 Oct 2009 15:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical gremlins
Hmm, could be a good idea to get a couple of bolts and metal strap in there then?
Author:  sportster_mann [ 15 Oct 2009 18:53 ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical gremlins
yourguitarhero wrote:
Well, bizarre results.

I charged my battery on the trickle charger overnight, then cleaned up the contacts on the battery and the earth connections. I couldn't find the earth connection between frame and subframe though? I then took the bike up to the dealer yesterday morning for a new sprocket (warranty) and to pick up a footpeg and indicator (blind van driver). Bike was doing its usual - little slow starting, stuttery running around town.

Picked it up this morning and the bike ran a lot better? Started right on the button and rev'd a lot better - none of the lag that I was getting revving up from say 2000.

Had a good chat with the Harley guys and they never mentioned doing anything more and I doubt they would have without asking! I had told them about the electrics problem - they'd mentioned that if the battery charge drops below 11V they need a really good charge to get them full up again?

Is it possible that because most of my riding is short runs around town (and I shut the bike off at traffic lights quite often and start it up again) that the battery charge had dropped to a low level and wasn't getting charged fully up?
I've never charged the battery before and it is 2 years old.

It seems to be the same symptoms/result as flyingdutchman was mentioning but I'm wondering why it took an extra 24 hours after cleaning and charging to sort itself out?

I'm wondering if the Harley guys charged the battery over night and never mentioned it.


I'm amazed that you lasted 2 years without charging your battery if you're only doing short runs - on a sportster they used to say that you had to do at least 15 - 20 miles just to put back the charge used to start it - and Buells are the same ...
Author:  THE FLYING DUCHMAN [ 16 Oct 2009 00:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical gremlins
yourguitarhero wrote:
Hmm, could be a good idea to get a couple of bolts and metal strap in there then?


I would not do that YGH, if you are going to add new mounts, as you will need a cable the size of the Earth strap and very large mounts/bolts to hold it. That could weaken the frame and/or sub-frame. Not good.

The bike should charge ok at idle. Ignition on the headlight will be a little dim. Start up and it should brighten slightly at a steady 1000 rpm idle and should not get any brighter on reving the engine. If it goes up and down you got a reg problem.

If the battery has gone stone flat in the past it might be fooked even though it seems ok. A well used two year old battery is prob past its best anyway.

I am in traffic all the time and never turn my engine off. Five mins or more maybe but I have never had that. It is a big Vee-twin lump and they need all the help they can get to start them even if hot. Just let it run. Less strain on everything in the long run.

Try this if you are still having starting problems and even if you are not it is still worth doing.

Get a long bit of wire and mount one end to an Earth on the front of the bike. Then with the bare wire of the other end, not mounted, place it on the battery Earth with your finger on the top of the wire and start the engine. If you feel heat then it is using the wire, in part, as an Earth and you still have a problem.
Author:  THE FLYING DUCHMAN [ 20 Oct 2009 20:58 ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical gremlins
yourguitarhero wrote:
Well, bizarre results.

I charged my battery on the trickle charger overnight, then cleaned up the contacts on the battery and the earth connections. I couldn't find the earth connection between frame and subframe though? I then took the bike up to the dealer yesterday morning for a new sprocket (warranty) and to pick up a footpeg and indicator (blind van driver). Bike was doing its usual - little slow starting, stuttery running around town.

Picked it up this morning and the bike ran a lot better? Started right on the button and rev'd a lot better - none of the lag that I was getting revving up from say 2000.

Had a good chat with the Harley guys and they never mentioned doing anything more and I doubt they would have without asking! I had told them about the electrics problem - they'd mentioned that if the battery charge drops below 11V they need a really good charge to get them full up again?

Is it possible that because most of my riding is short runs around town (and I shut the bike off at traffic lights quite often and start it up again) that the battery charge had dropped to a low level and wasn't getting charged fully up?
I've never charged the battery before and it is 2 years old.

It seems to be the same symptoms/result as flyingdutchman was mentioning but

I'm wondering if the Harley guys charged the battery over night and never mentioned it.



I'm wondering why it took an extra 24 hours after cleaning and charging to sort itself out?

I could be that some of the sensor info, going to the ECM, was wrong because of the Earth fault. Whats it run like now :?:
Author:  yourguitarhero [ 20 Oct 2009 21:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical gremlins
Dunno, it's being a bit weird - sometimes it runs well, sometimes it doesn't. Still kind of jerky and hesitant at low revs, but in gneral it is pulling through the revs better when you give it the beans. Most of my riding is short runs around the city centre in Edinburgh - nto really ideal conditions.

I've been fucking around with it a lot though recently - did a breather mod and flattened battery again by leaving lights on.... I'll give it some time to settle.
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