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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2012 16:16 
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Current ride: X1 Lightning
Location: Warwickshire
Hi guys and gals.

The rear tyre on my modified X1 Millennium must have picked up something fairly substantial and chucked in up into my real wheel hugger last summer because I noticed that about 2" of plastic was missing off the rear of it after a ride out. A month or so later I had a minor "off" which broke my rear brake pedal, damaged my silver ceramic coated stainless steel exhaust headers and my aftermarket Force Motor Products "Racewinder" ( Sidewinder with a carbon fibre shell around it ) air cleaner box.

Always mindful that us Buellers are, in a small way, contributing to global warming :ill: I thought I'd best get involved in a bit of "carbon capture and sequestration" :yup: ........... and replace my damaged black plastic rear wheel hugger ( and lower belt guard ) with original Buell carbon fibre parts and repair my carbon fibre air cleaner box - since this part has been unobtainable for over a decade.

Having obtained a second hand rear brake pedal, I managed to obtain a second hand carbon fibre rear wheel hugger and lower belt guard in quite good condition from a fellow UKBEG member ( via the Wanted section ) but thought the original Buell parts too thin and so applied another layer of carbon fibre twill and resin to the inside surfaces of both parts ( having given them a thorough cleaning first ) to stiffen them up a bit.

Having originally failed to effect a satisfactory repair of my damaged air cleaner box by filling and then applying a cosmetic layer of carbon fibre twill and resin, my subsequent attempt to make a brand new air cleaner box ( using the inside of the damaged one to make a male mould / former out of fabric reinforced plaster ) proved quite successful ( largely down to lessons learned during my attempt at a repair ).

Wishing my front pulley cover to match my new carbon fibre rear wheel hugger, lower belt guard and air cleaner box, I tried applying a single, cosmetic layer of carbon fibre twill and resin to the original black plastic part at the same time as I tried repairing my air cleaner box but was, again, not happy with the result so I've since made up a brand new part out of 3 layers of carbon fibre twill and resin - using the original part as a former / mould.

This is where I could do with some advice since I know that some of my fellow UKBEG members ( Nigel / battyone being but one example ) have made their own carbon fibre parts in the past and probably to a higher standard than I have managed to achieve.

Curiously, when I originally skinned my black plastic pulley cover with a single layer of carbon fibre twill and resin, it separated quite easily when I later came to remove it. Being fairly confident that the plastic which the pulley cover ( and rear hugger etc ) is made of does not bond well with the epoxy laminating resin that I have been using, I never-the-less applied a couple of coats of PVA release agent to it before laying down three layers of carbon fibre twill ( resin on the PVA coated plastic part, then twill, then resin and more twill, then resin and a final layer of twill and then a couple of coats of resin before a light rub down with very fine wet and dry and then a polish with T-Cut ). My intention was to remove the new carbon fibre part ( very slightly bigger then the original but it's not size critical ) when it had cured but it seems to be stuck fast, despite the PVA release agent, and I've decided not to try to separate it from the original black plastic part unless they vibrate apart in service.

Necessity being the mother of invention, I've been struck but how relatively easy it is ( with reasonable DIY skills and some patience ) to make your own "quite acceptable" carbon fibre parts and more members may wish to try doing the same for their own bikes?

My amateur efforts have not resulted in a truely "professional" result in terms of surface finish and my parts do not conform exactly to the shape of the formers / moulds used in the same way as they would have had I the requisite knowledge, skill and equipment and used vacuum bags.

Can someone please tell me:- 1) How I might use a vacuum bag ( the outside air pressure then squeezes the resin impregnated layers of carbon fibre twill down onto the exact contours of the former / mould and gets rid of any voids ) in future. 2) How it is possible to remove the vacuum bag once the underlying resin has cured. 3) How to avoid any creases in the vacuum bag transferring themselves into the resin and ruining the surface of the part. 4) Whether it is possible, once the resin has cured and the bag removed, to then apply one or more finishing coats of resin - bearing in mind that maximum bonding strength between layers of resin is past once it has cured beyond "no longer tacky but will still retain a firmly applied finger print".

Thanks and regards.

Richard


Attachments:
Original black plastic pulley guard.jpg
Original black plastic pulley guard.jpg [ 73.08 KiB | Viewed 667 times ]
Carbon fibre belt guard 006.jpg
Carbon fibre belt guard 006.jpg [ 193.7 KiB | Viewed 667 times ]
Carbon fibre belt guard 010.jpg
Carbon fibre belt guard 010.jpg [ 75.33 KiB | Viewed 667 times ]
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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2012 23:49 
For info, try google !

1 such result from a search ...

http://www.instructables.com/id/Vacuum- ... /?ALLSTEPS


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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2012 18:41 
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Joined: 31 Jul 2011 20:44
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Current ride: X1 Lightning
Location: Warwickshire
sportster_mann wrote:
For info, try google !

1 such result from a search ...

http://www.instructables.com/id/Vacuum- ... /?ALLSTEPS


Thanks but I have yet to find something similar on line where the laminating is taking place over a male mould / former and the final applied layer of carbon fibre twill ( along with a finishing coat of resin ) is then the outer surface of the part being created.

I can understand how the excess resin wicks through the peel-ply and breather cloth but I don't understand how it can be separated from the underlying part once the resin has hardened.

Or am I missing something? :?:

Richard


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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2012 09:47 
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Current ride: 1125r -stretched
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Richard,I think you're actually missing quite a bit,I'd suggest getting some books on fibreglassing or doing some online research.The principles apply to epoxy/carbon laminating just the same.

Pva release is used over multiple layers of wax not just on the mould and you are moulding the wrong way round,you should be making female moulds of your parts.

The other problem is that not all plastics are the same,some react rather badly to resins,although in my experience epoxy is very friendly compared to polyester.

Resins will not stick to a plastic sheet,but if you vac bag your male mould,any folds in the bag will show badly in your finished product.Better way to do it is produce a thin female mould and vac bag that onto your male and laminate.

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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2012 18:31 
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I know nothing of this process, but I'm very interested in the pearls of wisdom I read here. I was under the same misconception as Monty, and couldn't understand why the breather layer didn't stick when the resin went off :?

Keep the info coming Fellas, 'tis very interesting :yup: 8-)

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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2012 20:05 
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I also know nothing about this subject, but would it not be feasible to make a "bell jar" from something like an old gas cylinder to use as a vacuum canister?
If you split one in half and used a seal and toggle clamps, you could suspend the parts inside and draw the air out through the top valve.
Or am I over thinking this?

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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2012 22:20 
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Do they vacuum form plastic like that? :?

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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2012 22:36 
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Current ride: YZF750R
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Not sure how much of your profile you can see, but Rich has been posting a fair bit about making CF parts recently. https://www.facebook.com/#!/richard.vanags

Rich built the GSXR600 that took the unofficial Bridge to Gantry at the Nurburg record a couple of years ago.


Or search youtube for YAMR1M


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2012 13:43 
I've been looking into making some fibreglass parts for another project - I thought this was quite informative about making moulds -

http://www.cstsales.com/tutorials/fiberglass_mold.pdf


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2012 15:44 
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Joined: 31 Jul 2011 20:44
Posts: 85
Current ride: X1 Lightning
Location: Warwickshire
mojomick wrote:
I also know nothing about this subject, but would it not be feasible to make a "bell jar" from something like an old gas cylinder to use as a vacuum canister?
If you split one in half and used a seal and toggle clamps, you could suspend the parts inside and draw the air out through the top valve.
Or am I over thinking this?


Whereas a childs party balloon is inflated by creating a higher presssure inside the balloon that the ambient air pressure on the outside, vacuum bagging does the very opposite and creates a situation whereby the air on the outside of the bag is at a higher pressure than the air on the inside. Ambient air pressure then bears down on the outside of the bag which in turn forces the layers of wet resin / fibreglass / carbon fibre / kevlar against the surface of the mould / former.

So ...... I'm afraid your bell jar wouldn't work.

Richard


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2012 16:48 
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Joined: 31 Jul 2011 20:44
Posts: 85
Current ride: X1 Lightning
Location: Warwickshire
battyone wrote:
Richard,I think you're actually missing quite a bit,I'd suggest getting some books on fibreglassing or doing some online research.The principles apply to epoxy/carbon laminating just the same.

Pva release is used over multiple layers of wax not just on the mould and you are moulding the wrong way round,you should be making female moulds of your parts.

The other problem is that not all plastics are the same,some react rather badly to resins,although in my experience epoxy is very friendly compared to polyester.

Resins will not stick to a plastic sheet,but if you vac bag your male mould,any folds in the bag will show badly in your finished product.Better way to do it is produce a thin female mould and vac bag that onto your male and laminate.


Thanks for your very useful input Nige.

There's no doubting that, when making a laminated part, the best results in terms of strength and surface finish are to be achieved by first carefully preparing a suitable female mould / former - the inside surface of which will form the outer surface of the part being made as the still wet laminated layers of material are forced against it by higher external air pressure acting against the vacuum bag, peel-ply and wicking cloth.

I guess my point is that quite acceptable parts can be created quite simply by using a male mould ( as a release agent, I applied several layers of beeswax disolved in white spirit to make a thickish paste to the outside of the mould when making my air box ) or even the original part ( where size isn't critical ) albeit the quality of the outer surface will only be as good as the degree to which the maker has been able to get the layers of laminated material to conform to the shape of the underlying mould / former and to squeeze out excess resin.

Anyhow ....... I still haven't been able to find anything on line which properly explains how and when the peel ply and wicking cloth should be removed from the part being created ( when using a vacuum bag to achieve proper conformity of shape against a male or female mould / former and, in the case of a male mould, then using wet and dry and further resin coats to obtain a satisfactory final outer finish ) but the only thing that would seem to make sense to me is if the resin is allowed to set to the extent that the shape of the part is "fixed" but not to the extent that it will not let go of the peel ply and wicking cloth which would otherwise become an inseparable part of the laminated structure.

As an aside, I'm pleased enough with the results of my recently created male moulded parts to want to have a crack at building a sculpted male mould over which to create a carbon fibre cover for the battery and front / top of the oil tank on my X1. On the one hand, the oil in the oil tank will no longer enjoy a "cooling frontal air flow" but, on the other hand, the tank is only inches behind the rear cylinder and exhaust header so this cover may even serve to cool the oil in the oil tank on a long journey by sheilding it from hot air as well as tidying up this part of the bike . Any thoughts on this from anyone would be most welcomed.

Richard


Attachments:
Carbon fibre Buell X1.jpg
Carbon fibre Buell X1.jpg [ 188.14 KiB | Viewed 503 times ]
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