I read, adjusting showerheads for a turbo charged engine will be a nightmare. Very long way to travel for the fuel, lots of walls, where fuel will stick at and temperatures changing rapidly. Are you sure, this option will be less complex than losing weight?

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"It is often said that before you die your life passes before your eyes. It is in fact true. It's called living."
Terry Pratchett

There's no fun at all in losing weight.

Shower heads have advantages in a forced induction motor,most specifically charge cooling. Never said it was going to be easy,it will be about finding the balance between the 2 sets of injectors,but at least with an independant regulated supply to the shower heads their flow will remain more constant as boost increases. May even have to go the same way on the standard injectors.

As an aside,apart from determining firing order,what does the map sensor do?

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Nige...1125d 9.43@140mph

Found this when searching for accel enrichment info: http://yarchive.net/car/efi_wetted_manifold.html



Regardless the fact, that EFI would be able to provide the required amount of fuel, the issues rised do not sound very promising. Wouldn't it be easier to install a second set of injectors somewhere near the ports? the ECM also does not provide a pressure-to-fuel table for the secondary injectors, only a common alpha-n-table based on rpm and load, that is calculated from MAP pressure and TP (which is switched off for OEM bikes). This will get a bit tricky, I think.


Firing order is not determined reading the MAP sensor (XB do not have one), but by watching the crank's angular speed during crank. That's the reason for the new 36-2 crankshaft design that is found in XB engines since 2008.

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"It is often said that before you die your life passes before your eyes. It is in fact true. It's called living."
Terry Pratchett

The compressor on a turbo does a very good job of centrifuging any liquids present in the air stream.

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08 Specialized Langster

So ... the secondary map is not just tp/rpm like the first? genuine load as an axis is probably a better system for FI.

Until the secondary table is activated the map sensor does nothing?

This does mean I'll need to change out the map sensor for a 2 bar sensor. Physically not an issue,but what about recalibrating?

Believe me there's no issue with showerheads
Any injector placement is a compromise, port injectors are great for starting, idling and part throttle running,but not ideal for wide open throttle, high speed running. I'm sure you've seen pictures of race set ups with multiple staged injectors, I've got pics of injectors pointing the wrong way to assist fuel/air mixing.
Even as inefficient as draw thru turbos were/are they still work too

I had been led to believe that some current sequential systems running without cam position sensors have been using timed map sensor readings to determine which stroke a cylinder is on at start up?

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Nige...1125d 9.43@140mph

Sorry, that was apparently misunderstanding. The secondary map is similar to the primary map, only smaller, the lower loads (rows) are missing.

Stock configuration is that load is defined by TP only, but it can as well be configured to take into account a MAP signal. So there are two diffent ways now, to take MAP into account - one is to adjust airbox pressure correction and using MAP as an input, the second is to calculate load from MAP and TP. I do not know, if ABP correction will be applied to the secondary injectors too, so I think, it's easier to use MAP and TP for getting a load value, which is then used in the fuel maps.


Calibration should be easily done with the manufacturer's datasheet. Bosch usually provides enough information to set up the sensor data.



Although I am willing to accept that running an engine permanently at WOT might be a teensy-weensy bit different from every day use - I refuse to believe as soon as it comes to technical topics.
I assume it would require an enormous amount of fuel if the gas is to travel through the turbo and then up to the cylinders.


As the XB have no MAP sensor, and guessing from the variables' names, the way to detect the right phase might be similar to one of these patents:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4889094.html
http://www.google.com/patents/EP1045967B1
http://www.google.com/patents/EP0640762B1

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"It is often said that before you die your life passes before your eyes. It is in fact true. It's called living."
Terry Pratchett

I think you've got a little confused the shower heads will be sat right above the throttle bodies in what was the airbox- but will be a plenum- As they are on the 1190,ie they shower fuel down into the tb.

With the recalibration of the map sensor I was more concerned about being able to do it in monospy or tuner...I've know the baro is user defined,but wasn't sure about the map connected to the 2 inlet stacks.

Hey if you say the ecm measures a change in speed to figure out cylinder cycles I'm fine with that.But I'm at a loss to see why they bothered with the map sensor as I can't see it doing anything,even your airbox correction mod uses the baro sensor???

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Nige...1125d 9.43@140mph

......and any forced induction system would be blowing dry air, right

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Mithered ta death.
92 MB
96 S2T
98 S1W
00 M2
01 X1
03 P3
10 CR

Unless it was a draw through set up

But yes mine will both be "blow through" set ups, dry air forced into a sealed plenum that feeds the throttle bodies.

I know how to do the physical/mechanical work,making it all fit could be a real pita and sizing a turbo will be a huge swag - but i'll cheat and use a cheap chinese copy for the first attempt,when that is wrong as it's bound to be then I won't have wasted £1k on a good one. The Rotrex is a bit easier to get right as it's controlled by engine speed,but the drive is harder to package.

As far as the efi goes,if it was a jap bike you'd put a bleed in to the map. sensor,so it couldn't "see" positive pressure and run a power commander.Working out how to use the standard ecm is going to be tricky,without Gunter's assistance impossible.

I don't in anyway underestimate the amount of work involved,but that's why I've got three,2 can be racing while one is the unfortunate test mule.

Got new forged rods sorted and talking to people about getting some better pistons made. Going to be a long busy winter.

Oh and I like nitrous oxide too,just happen to have a couple of bottles and solenoids knocking about...

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Nige...1125d 9.43@140mph

Forced induction, nitrous etc. is what I used to do for a living in the distant past......I've built loadsa motors in my time........these days I just spanner Buells

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Mithered ta death.
92 MB
96 S2T
98 S1W
00 M2
01 X1
03 P3
10 CR

Now I am confused, but anyway, we will see how it looks like in the end.


Yes, I agree with you. I did not look at it in detail, but the MAP sensor seems pretty useless for now.

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"It is often said that before you die your life passes before your eyes. It is in fact true. It's called living."
Terry Pratchett

Always open to quotes for engine building Maz,I've gotta couple to build and so much to do this winter that I'm never going to be able to do it all myself.

Can always drop a couple of motors in the van and have a drive up to discuss things

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Nige...1125d 9.43@140mph

I finally realised that you were visualising some sort of blow through turbo set up with a couple of injectors outside-or in the turbo.

The throttle bodies will stay where they are,but the airbox will be replaced by -a smaller- sealed plenum chamber. The shower head injectors will most likely mount in the top of this plenum and aim directly down the inlets.

Feeding these injectors with a separate fuel supply that is regulated rather than deadhead pressure controlled,will allow the fuel pressure to "track" boost pressure,keeping the pressure constant "above" boost pressure,making fuel flow thru the injectors more consistent.
The fact that the secondary map is more coarse should make it easier not harder.

I will need your assistance with configuration of the buell pressure sensors/re calibration. However if the MAP sensor has no effect then I can just supply that with a one way bleed,this will allow it to monitor depression in the inlets but not register a positive pressure under boost and possibly throwing a trouble code.

I'm sure things will get clearer as we progress,hopefully I'll have pictures for you in the next month or so.

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Nige...1125d 9.43@140mph

Exactly, that image came to my mind, because seen at naturally aspired engines before.



That would have been my next question So, if I understand correctly, the primary injectors remain more or less unchanged, and the secondaries deliver all additional fuel, required because of the boost. Well, fine. MAP will be an input to calculate/adjust load, and load is the input to the secondary fuel map.

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"It is often said that before you die your life passes before your eyes. It is in fact true. It's called living."
Terry Pratchett

So I will need to change and recalibrate the MAP sensor? Can I leave the baro sensor as is?

I'll get on and find an appropriate replacement,bosch do plenty,I'll try to find a plug in replacement.

I'll have a look in tunerpro,I assume there will be a table for the map/tps blend axis ??

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Nige...1125d 9.43@140mph